In this episode of Caregiver Conversations, Dr. Samuel White II joins us to explore the intersection of caregiving and spirituality. A Harvard Divinity School graduate, spiritual care specialist at PACE Southeast Michigan, and founder of Agape Church, Dr. White reflects on caring for his own parents and how that experience inspired his work supporting aging adults and their caregivers. He shares practical spiritual care tools like life review, logotherapy, and the power of love, reminding caregivers to care for themselves while caring for others.
In this episode, we cover:
📚 Learn more about Dr. White’s books (available on Amazon):
Dr. Samuel White II
Southeast Michigan Senior Regional Collaborative (SRC)
Neighborhood Legal Services Michigan - Elder Law & Advocacy Center (NLS)
Kristie: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. I'm Kristy King, and welcome to another episode of Caregiver Conversations. We're so glad you're with us today as we explore the many aspects of caregiving, physical, emotional, and spiritual. Our goal is to help you find balance and support on your caregiving journey. Today we're honored to welcome Dr.
Samuel White ii. Dr. White is the spiritual care specialist for Pace Southeast Michigan, and the founder of Agape Church in Detroit. He's a graduate of Harvard Divinity School, a former academic dean, a professor, and the author of 16 books, and we love the books. Dr. White's caregiving journey began with his parents, his father who passed away from intestinal cancer, and his mom who passed away from dementia.
These experiences have shaped his deep understanding of the importance of spiritual and emotional support for aging adults, as well as the critical need for self-care among caregivers. He's written [00:01:00] extensively on these subjects in his books, aging Gracefully, spiritual Care for Aging Adults, and it is well with my soul.
Spiritual Care for the Dying All available on Amazon. Welcome, Dr. White, and thank you for joining us on the show today. We can't wait to hear more about your story and the practical strategies that you have for caregivers.
Samuel: Thank you so much for having me, Ms. King. I truly appreciate you and, and the great work of the senior regional collaborative, uh, the support, the love, uh, the care that you give to people.
Uh, I know it cannot be measured and, uh, and I so thankful that I have the opportunity to be a part of your work. I do appreciate that.
Kristie: We thank you so much. We thank you for taking out the time out of your schedule. I know how busy you are and you know, I just wanna say again, thank you so much for being there.
You know, we've been working together probably for the past couple years and providing some information to the caregiving community, and so I'm super excited to kind of have this [00:02:00] conversation with you today around your spiritual care journey and what it looks like. So Dr. White, let's start by talking a little bit about your personal caregiving journey.
So understanding that you took care of your dad and you took care of your mom. How did these experiences lead you to your current work as a spiritual care specialist? I.
Samuel: Let me begin by saying I was extremely blessed to have a wonderful father, uh, and a unbelievable mother. I thank and praise God for them, and I had, uh, three sisters and two brothers.
I. So all the caregiving was not on me. Uh, we shared it. Uh, but, um, it's an interesting thing. I, I had the privilege and honor to go to school and to get all these degrees, but the greatest learning that I received is that the death bed of my father and, uh, being caregiving to my mother and, uh. You know, my, [00:03:00] I went to school, but, uh, school can't teach you some of this stuff.
Kristie: I say that all the time. ,
Samuel: you know, I don't care how many books you read, how many, how many degrees you have, life lessons will teach you. And, uh, as I said, I learned a lot about what to do, what not to do in terms of, uh, caring for people who are terminally ill. And in terms of people who, uh, who, uh, who have dementia.
Uh. And I kind of try to crystallize that learning, uh, in, uh, the books that I have written. Uh, I think my, my greatest memory I have of my mother was when I went to go visit her in Atlanta, Georgia. And, uh, and I sat there and she said, let's, oh, I gotta go get my car. I said, what? I said, yeah, you gotta go find my car.
I knew that she wasn't driving, but I just said, okay. So I could still see her in her, in her walker, pushing [00:04:00] her walker. And I'm following behind her looking for a car that does not exist. , my mother hadn't driven in about 15 years. Mm-hmm . And, uh, we bought from one parking space to another, and I just went with the flow.
Kristie: Yes.
Samuel: Uh, but it was breaking my heart, breaking my heart. And then the other really, uh, powerful experience with my father was that, uh, he's dying of I intense cancer. He's only 49 years old. Wow. And, uh, he, uh, he, he, he got gathered up the strength to play pool. I always wanted to play pool with him. He played pool, my older brother, and he knew that that's what I wanted to do.
So he, he gave, got the grace and the strength. To play billards, to play pool with me. But, um, and I'll never forget him saying on his deathbed, he said, if I live praise God. Mm. If I die, praise God either the way it is, well with my soul. And so as a, as a [00:05:00] result of that, I wrote, it is well with my soul. Uh, spiritual care for the dying and how you give care to people who are terminally ill.
Uh, my, my greatest memory of my mother, what she told me was, uh, son in this life, you better laugh, learn. Laugh, learn and eat your dessert first. . And so, and when she told me that, I learned that you have to eat your dessert first. Metaphorically speaking is learning to take care of yourself. Mm-hmm
Learning to enjoy life, . Do not defer gratification. And for some of us, and especially your caregivers, I'm sure they've always put everybody in front of them. Absolutely. They've always taken care of the caregiver. They always, uh, watched over them. Uh, they gave so much of themselves that they didn't have anything for themselves that they ended up neglecting themselves.
Yep. So that message of each deserve first isn't for the selfish or the self-centered. It's for those people who have always given. always the nurtures and the give [00:06:00] givers. And so my mother knew I needed to hear that message. I've been a pastor since 1984. I've always put my congregation, my family before me, but I needed to learn to take care of myself 'cause I experienced what a lot of people.
People experience is caregiver burnout.
Kristie (2): Mm-hmm . Or
Samuel: compassion fatigue. And, um, and, uh, that's not an easy thing and you all deal with that. Uh, yeah. You regional collaborative deal with that on a, on a daily basis. And, uh, so I, I really wanted to share some of those things with you all to, uh, to give some support and comfort to, to the caregivers.
Are there.
Kristie: I think a part of that as well is that caregiver guilt that comes along with that, that, that giving that compassion and sometimes that piece is, I don't get, I don't do for myself out of that thought. That, and just internalizing the fact that, you know what, I can't because there's so much to do for everyone else and that guilt that may come along with it as well.
Samuel: Yeah, yeah. Well, [00:07:00] and that's a very good point that, that, that's some of the, the, what I call the spiritual symptoms of. Of, uh, of a caregiver burnout or, uh, uh, compassion fatigue. Uh, some people, uh, become socially detached.
Kristie (2): Mm.
Samuel: Uh, they, uh, they, they, they take a lot of time off. They dread helping others. They don't want to be bothered.
Yeah. You know, they dis disconnect. Because they're tired. Yeah. They're burnt out. Yeah. Uh, some people get, uh, the burnout is physical. They get migraines, they get chronic pain, even cardiovascular diseases, obesity, diabetes, all of that. Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . Because they don't take care of themselves. Some people, uh, feelings of anger.
Irritability, uh, mood swings, uh, sadness, melancholy, uh, feeling like a failure. Emotional numbness. Some people have psychological issues, uh, yeah. Uh, have, uh, maybe developed what they call a codependent [00:08:00] personality. They don't, they don't even know that they have a life. They're so focused on the caregiver that they don't even look at themselves.
They develop a codependent personality. Some people, uh, have, uh, uh, mood disorders. They become depressed. Uh, some people get low self-esteem. They don't learn how to, uh, care for themselves. So, so this, this caregiver, uh, uh, caregiver, uh, burnout. It's very serious business because in the end, uh, it, it, it, it eats away a person.
Mm-hmm . Eats away at them psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, uh, uh, and if they don't learn how to care for themselves, if they don't learn how to love themselves, uh, they can be no good for anyone else. You know the, the great scripture, love your neighbor as yourself. Mm-hmm . Now we get to love your neighbor piece.
We forget the yourself. You cannot love and care for anyone else until you love and care for yourself
Kristie: and you're in it and [00:09:00] may not even understand what's going on with you. You may be exhibiting all those, a lot of those qualities that you noted and just like I'm a little off, not realizing that you're really experiencing some burnout.
Samuel: Right. Exactly. Exactly. And uh, and a part of, part of self care is being emotionally aware, emotional self-care. Mm-hmm. And that is the, you gotta nurture and tender, tend to your own feelings and emotions. You gotta be aware of how you feel. Yeah. And reflect on how you feel and why do you feel the way that you do.
I mean, that takes time. You gotta think about you and it's hard. And then, uh, as you think about how you feel and why you feel the way, then you gotta be, then you gotta be able to choose your own response. Mm. You know, you, you know, you don't have to be led by your anger or your frustration or your business.
You can choose how you respond, but that takes discipline. It takes time, but you gotta focus it on you so that emotional self care [00:10:00] of protecting yourself. From negative, toxic people. Mm. who intentionally or unintentionally break your spirit. You know, you gotta establish boundaries for yourself. Yeah.
Those are all important things for self-care.
Kristie: Are those part of what you would call a spiritual assessment? Is that kind of a spiritual assessment or is that something different that caregivers and aging adults can think about or, or should look at when they're going through a caregiving experience holistically.
Samuel: Well, you know, you know, when I think of, when I, when I think about the spiritual assessment, I'm really focusing in on, okay, how do you care? One, one of the troubling things is, you know, I went to all this school, got all this education, didn't know how to. Take care of my father. Mm, didn't know how to take care of my mom.
So I had to understand the first thing you gotta do, the question is, what do you do to, what do you do to take care of your, your, your, your, your family member who's going through, well? You gotta focus [00:11:00] in on them. You gotta listen and listening, nonjudgmentally. Listening, uh, uh, and listening and understanding their emotional or their spiritual needs and concerns.
So listening is part of, uh, of, of developing an assessment because we, as you, as you listen to a person, I. Who you're taking care of, right? You learn that they have a, maybe they have a number of needs and there's a lot of needs that people have that need to be loved and appreciated, that need to find meaning and purpose in their life.
The need to reconnect with their family or their friends. Uh, the need to forgive and to be forgiven. So there's, there's like. You know, in my book, aging gracefully, uh, aging gracefully, um, there's, I I list out a number of needs that many people may have. And so those kind of needs cannot be discovered until you ask the question.
One of my great, one of my greatest detectives who I love [00:12:00] immensely is Peter Fa. And he is Colombo , and he always asks the question, one more question, please, . And that's what you gotta do with people if you wanna know. One more question, please. Always asking a question. That's right. Peter Fa Colombo. Great detective.
He asked the question. One more question, please. Mm-hmm . And that's what you gotta do.
Kristie (2): Yeah.
Samuel: That's for everybody. That's for professional caregivers. That's for personal caregivers. I didn't know how to take care of my father. How do I know how to take care of my father if I don't know what he needs? That's right.
How can I take care of my mom until they know what she needs and then try to get in that world and help them where they need?
Kristie: Yeah. Not making those assumptions based on your theory. Right. You know, like you say, everything is definitely not in a book, you know, and we often know that caregivers focus on physical health, but spiritual and emotional wellbeing is just as important and we know this.
So how can we recognize when an older adult might be struggling, and what steps can we take to help them? You know, what may be a [00:13:00] question that we ask to identify that spiritual need?
Samuel: Well, the question in terms of listing, how do you feel? Find out how they feel. Allow them the opportunity to vent. No, uh, question.
Well, how, what, um, do you have any concerns about the relationship? So as I, I categorize it in the F's, F is first, F is for feeling second, F is for family. What are the relationships? I've talked to people and, uh, I've talked to people who are dementia and, uh, and uh, once they hear the sound of their daughter's voice.
It clicks. It clicks. So for some people getting connected, family feeling, what's your focus? What, uh, what, what is it that you really want? What, what, what goals do you want? What do you wanna do with the, with this part of your life? What matters most to you? Feeling family focus, uh, finance. By finance, we're talking about their material welfare.
For some people, [00:14:00] uh, toward the end of their life, uh, they wanna get their finances together or they wanna get the, get the, get their, their their, um, uh. Their life together. So, uh, so they're looking at that. Then finally, finite. Uh, some people struggle with the, with death and dying. So you're asking questions in, uh, in relation to that.
Uh, are, you know, do you, you got your, are you got your affairs in order? Uh, do you, and it's interesting thing is caregivers don't want to ask the question. The, the, but the people I've dealt with who are terminally ill mm-hmm . Or even have dementia, are ready to talk about those things. Wow. It's the family who don't wanna talk about it.
Wow. And it's the elephant in the room. Yep. the elephant smells, we can see it, but we don't even wanna talk about mama dying. We're not gonna do that. But mama's ready to deal with that 'cause she wants to make sure the family's okay. She wants to make sure everybody, everything's done in order. So having those, having those really important questions about what matters most to the person, that's really what you did.
What matters most to them?
Samuel (2): Yeah.
Samuel: And then once [00:15:00] you find out what matters most to them, then you can. Try to fulfill that deep.
Kristie: I think that's an interesting point that has come up a number of times is having that conversation and caregivers being comfortable with having that conversation around death and dying.
And my thing as a social worker was always, how do you wanna live? So how do you want these days to be? And so we've been having a lot of conversation about that and the importance of it, because honestly, it's a scary thing to have that conversation. Because people think if I had a conversation and it's gonna happen tomorrow.
Right. Or something like that. And so, uh, the SRC is really working on having some workshops and some additional dialogue around how do you have that conversation as a loved one? How do you have that conversation as a professional? I think we're trained in it. You know, I can remember a number of family meetings to have those conversations.
But that's what you're trained to do. But as a family member, it goes back to, like you said, asking those questions and, and that being a part [00:16:00] of the conversation and being okay with it. Yeah. So you've mentioned various tools or interventions for spiritual care. Can you share a few practical strategies that caregivers can incorporate into their daily routines?
To really help their aging adults feel supported and heard. You talked a lot about listening and we know that communication listening is a huge part of it, that a lot of times we already got the answer by the time you say it. And so how do we change that and really, um, think differently around our interventions with our loved one, especially when we talk about spiritual care.
Samuel: Okay. There are five spiritual care tools that I teach. For, for the spiritual care, for the, uh, disciplines at Pace, listening, learning loving life review, and logotherapy, I. That's deal with the main one and [00:17:00] is love , because let me tell you something. When we talk about love, as you know, the Greeks talked about the different di, the definitions of love, aros, romantic love, lia, friendship, love, storage is family love.
But we're talking about agape. We're talking about, we're talking about unconditional unlimited love, loving people, not because they like you, loving people, not because they're their parents, loving them simply because God loves them. It's the love of God working in the human heart, and so when you love people, you are interested in what they want.
Not what you want, not what you wanna give them, but what they want. And so the first thing is love and, and, um, and see what my experience is. People know if you care or if you don't care. , that's true. They can see it in your eyes. Absolutely. They can hear it in the tone of your voice. They know. Yeah. And so you can't fake that.
You, if you have to genuine and if you genuinely care, it doesn't matter what you do. Yeah. It really doesn't because people know you're coming from a good place, but you could come, you could do the right thing for the wrong reason and people [00:18:00] could see that. Mm-hmm . They can see it. They can feel it. So I think the, the, the main thing is the, is the love.
The first thing is the love. Second thing about listening, Andre Nen talks about ministry of presence. Just being there, you don't have to have the right sermon, you don't have to have the right scripture. You don't have to have the right philosophy. Just be there. Just listen. Uh, just go on the journey with them.
Mm. And then, uh, life review. I'm, I'm telling you, I get so much outta being with what we call the participants at pace. Just listening to them and asking them about their life and allowing them to express their story. I. You know, their successes, their failures, their joys, their sorrows, their accomplishments.
Allow people to tell their story. People wanna tell their story. Yes, they do. There are people who wanna listen to it, , but a lot of people are walking history books, especially our seniors. Mm-hmm . And I ask people about how, how was it when you were a kid? Tell me about the days when, uh, when Dr. King was alive.
Mm-hmm. What happened back then, or what, how, [00:19:00] what, how did you ha how did you handle going into war? Talking to soldiers? Mm-hmm . How do you handle Vietnam? So you allow people to tell their story and then I. The, uh, the, the last one, uh, well, learning, again, learning is, is, is a lot of people who are going through difficulties toward the end of their life are struggling with what do I do?
Or they're struggling with, uh, what I call, uh. Uh, uh, illiteracy, medical illiteracy. Mm-hmm . Where the doctor told 'em something, but they truly don't, don't get it. Mm-hmm . Or, or they, they get different information. They really don't get it, so you gotta take your time and explain it. So learning is important.
'cause some people, if they don't have the information, they're not at peace. Yeah. Okay. And then the final thing is Logotherapy is developed by the great . Viktor Frankl who said that people have to find a meaning and purpose in life. And when people toward the end of their life, they can't do what they used to do, they can't go to work.
They're not mama, they're not daddy, who am I? So you have to help people discover, [00:20:00] who am I at this point in my life? And then for some people, you have to help 'em develop attitudes to deal with all of the, all of the, uh, the challenges that they've come face to face with. So, um. The spiritual care tools of loving, uh, listening, learning, life review, and logotherapy, those are the tools that you can have.
You don't have to be a minister, you don't have to be a preacher. You don't have to be a teacher. But, but if you can just be willing to listen to people and learn and, and help 'em share their story and encourage them to, to be resilient in the face of their difficulties, that makes a big difference.
Kristie: I think that, you know, I, I really take in the part of just really listening to people.
I remember when I was working directly as a social worker, and I would spent hours just sitting, listening, and of course a social worker, you know, we gotta come in, we gotta do the, the assessments. You have to do this. The bigger part of that was just listening. Just listening to learn about the patient itself because [00:21:00] they wanna tell you and then you get all the other information that you need off of that and showing that you care.
It's all built into the process and I just think that, um, as we talk to caregivers and we engage caregivers, being able to share those pieces because every day they're just moving. They're just moving. They're not even thinking about how can I make this engagement more, um, more full. More full for myself, more full for my loved one?
Or even You mentioned the professional caregiver. Same thing, how rich their life becomes. How rich my life became being a social worker in the dialysis unit. Never did I think, oh, I would be getting a lot, but I did. I got a lot just sitting listening to stories. Now, of course, I was behind schedule often because I spent two hours listening, but it was worth more than anything because they knew how much I cared.
Right. So I think that's, that's definitely important. That's right. You know, and kind of thinking about. Those five spiritual tools [00:22:00] and the value of self-care itself. Can you talk a little bit about why self-care is so vital and those strategies and those strategies for those who might feel guilty? We talked a little bit about it earlier.
Mm-hmm . What are some additional strategies maybe, or how can they look at those strategies differently when they may feel guilty about taking some time for themselves? I know we talked about burnout. People may not know they even, you know, that they even feel like they're burnt out, not knowing why they're responding the way they are or why they're losing weight, or why they're gaining weight, or a number of things as you mentioned.
So can you talk a little bit about that guilt and addressing that guilt?
Samuel: Yeah, I think the, the, the, the, the foundation for self care, I. Is this called Thing called love? This thing called love, and you gotta get that in our mind and in our spirit. You gotta love you. I love what the Lucille Ball says. She says, love yourself and everything else will take care of itself.
Now, I know I'm dating myself because I love [00:23:00] Lucy as old school, but Lucy was right. You gotta love you. And if you love you, everything else will take care of itself. There's another quote I got here by Diane von Berg. She says, the most important relationship is the one you have with yourself.
Kristie (2): Hmm.
Samuel: So we, we, you, it begins with you and I, no, I teach this, I preach this.
You got to take care of you. If you don't do that, you can't take care of your mom, can't take care of everybody else. You know, you'll die before they do. That's it. You'll, you will, you, you will go to the hospital before they do. You have to take care of you. And, and there's some things that I, I encourage people.
One is what I call self-talk. Spiritual self-talk. Uh, Dr. Aja Brown says, self-talk reflects your innermost feelings. So what I'm saying is inside everybody, there's a conversation going on. Okay. Constantly. There's just negative inner voices, insistent, negative voices at, on [00:24:00] this side, and there's this positive self-talk on this side.
In the old school, bugs Bunny, there was the devil on one side and the angel on the other side. But there, there, there's negative voices. There's a warrior in there. There's a worrier voice, always worried about something. Mm-hmm . Always has anxiety about it. Then there's a critic voice, someone who's always constantly put yourself down, say, oh no, you could have did a better job.
Oh no, that's not good. Then there's the perfectionist voice. The perfection's voice is somebody who says, oh, look, you could have did a better job than that, and what, what we have to do is a discipline is we gotta learn to ignore and dismiss. Those negative voices in our own head and learn to be our own best cheerleader.
you gotta say, Hey, good job, but nobody else says it. You better say Good job. Hey, I'm looking good. I'm looking real good. I'm sounding good. Great job. Great job. Because if you don't do that, you'll, you'll crumble. You know, I, one of the stories I love is, uh, is, uh, is [00:25:00] the old story, uh, uh, of Snow White, and you remember the story, the Whi Witch?
Mm-hmm . She goes to the mirror every day. She says, mayor Mirror on the wall, who's the Ferris of the mall? And Mayor always says, you are, you are. One day, as you recall, she said, Al, who's the fair? She said, oh, snow White. And she loses it. That lady, she loses it. And part of the reason was she was always looking for that mirror to validate her.
Mm. And oftentimes that's what we do. We're always looking for somebody to validate us. Somebody to say, good job. Somebody to give somebody to do something. Guy for, no, no, no, no, no. I've learned you've got to do it for yourself. Do not wait because you'll be angry, you'll be frustrated, you'll be bitter to thinking that they don't appreciate you.
They don't love you. Listen, forget that you love you. You appreciate yourself. I had a friend of mine and I, I went over to her house. I said, Hey, how you doing? Oh, those are beautiful flowers. Nice dozen roses. Boy, your husband sure does love you. She said, oh, my husband didn't give that. So I said, what? I said, yeah, my husband didn't gimme those [00:26:00] roses.
She said, I bought these roses for myself. . That's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm, that happened a long
Samuel (2): never. That's right. Yeah. Yep. You, you, she's right. You take care of yourself. Take care of yourself. You gotta love
Samuel: yourself and speak positive to yourself because if you don't, it's just gonna break, break down.
So positive self talk. It's very, very important. Uh, it is a spiritual tool. It's even, you know, I don't wanna get religious on you, but it's in Bible, biblically speaking. Mm-hmm . There's, there's positive self-talk and, uh, that's gonna help you because, you know, oftentimes you're a caregiver, you're doing this stuff all by yourself.
Maybe the family doesn't then there when you want. Maybe they don't appreciate all the work that you're doing and you know, you're by yourself doing this work. You just got to, you gotta en boost yourself up. You really do. And encourage yourself, you know, encourage yourself and, uh, speak positive about what you're doing.
Okay? Don't let the critic, that critic voice mm-hmm . Don't let [00:27:00] that perfectionist voice, that warrior voice, break your spirit.
Kristie: That's all right. That is a lesson in itself. So Dr. White, this has been an incredible conversation, full of insights, practical advice, and just you all around. Thank you. So before we wrap up, do you have any final thoughts or key takeaways for our listeners today?
Samuel: I want to, you know, I, I love my mama. My mom's gone to glory. But thi this season of my life, uh, you know, uh, her quote just stays with me. And I think it is a . It may puts a smile on people's face, but I think it is right. Love, laugh, learn and eat your dessert first. , eat your dessert first. Take care of you.
Friends. Life is so short. And so unpredictable. It could go just like that. Absolutely. Uh, Uhuh, take care of you. Enjoy yourself. Be in [00:28:00] the moment. Celebrate the moments, even if it doesn't mean anything. Celebrate the moment. Enjoy yourself, love yourself, and as you love yourself, you'll be able to love everybody else.
Kristie: Love God. Bless the key love. That's the key. Yeah. So thank you so much for being here and sharing your experiences to our listeners, if you wanna learn more about Dr. White's work. Visit Agape Church website.com. That's A-G-A-P-E-C-H-U-R-C-H-W-E-B-S-I-T e.com. Or connect with him on Facebook and don't forget his books.
Aging Gracefully, spiritual Care for Aging Adults and it is well with my soul. Spiritual Care for the Dying are both on Amazon. Thank you for tuning in to caregiver conversations. If you enjoyed today's episode, we love for you to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a friend or fellow caregiver.
For additional resources and updates, be sure to follow us on social media or visit [00:29:00] www.semmisrc.org. You can also reach us at. Info, that's INF o@miseniors.org, or remember, you can call us (888) 341-8593. Thank you again for tuning in and remember, you're not alone on this journey. Until next time, take care and keep caring.